Posted on 10/25/2007

Prince Paul would like you to know that it's been a rough year. A "baaaaad year" is how he actually described it. But he also wants you to know that if he successfully completes 2007 without being ousted from the industry (by whom, it is unknown,) he says he'll have some shit that'll really bug you out. "Really push the envelope" was the exact phrase, but we all know how dude does.

Still, are we talking bugged out on a level...more than his hip-hop-movie-in-a-CD that was "Prince Among Thieves?" Perhaps. More than the bloodcurdlingly bizarro "6 Feet Deep?" Hard to believe. More than the uber-classic and ultra-abstract "3 Feet High and Rising?" Umm....

But the Dew Doo Man is not down for the count. He kinda sounds like he might have a whole lot left. His latest venture, Baby Elephant's Turn My Teeth Up!, a funk-rocking, reggae-rapping stew with Bernie Worrell and Don Newkirk, is one hint. His in-the-works "Baby Loves Hip Hop," a record aimed at the emerging six months to six years old demographic, is one more. And the fact that '07 has been nothing nice to Prince Paul, is another.

You see, tough times have inspired some of his best works. Mistakes have inspired others. Keep scrolling to find out more in this OKP exclusive interview, conducted by Mike Gadd.

OKAYPLAYER: The Baby Elephant album draws from a lot of different sounds and a lot of influences. When you go into the studio, are you going in with the intent of making something different?

PRINCE PAUL: Me and Newkirk, our intention wasn't really to do something different, but was to do something unique using Bernie Worrell. When you usually hear him play, it's with Parliament Funkadelic. Funk, you know? Funk music. So what we wanted to do, since he's such a broad experienced player, we wanted to utilize all aspects of his talents. People don't realize that he plays classical. He does reggae. He does everything. I wanted to tap every possible talent from him. In that sense, it made it different from Parliament Funkadelic. Maybe by today's standards it might be different than what's been put out or being put out, but for the most part it's just drawing from a whole lot of influences. It was great working with Bernie Worrell. It was one of the best experiences I've had in a long time. He's an older accomplished musician. A genius in my eyes. For me, working with him was like free college. I'm sitting learning something that I can apply to my own craft. I didn't get paid a lot, but at the same time, I'm actually getting paid for it! [Laughs.] So you couldn't beat it, man.

OKP: Are there any concrete things that you know you've taken away from the experience working with him?

PP: One thing is I know about layering a lot better. I used to layer samples a lot with De La Soul, so I had an idea about that. But the way Bernie creates...he has an arrangement in mind already and as he's playing, he's arranging it in his head. For me to see that and then for me to figure it out, it's like 'wow, that's pretty cool.' He knows how to lay these things by hearing one thing at a time. He picks everything out and plays it to where he knows the changes are. Plays it to where the bridge or the hook might come. And then he'll play the next thing and do the same thing. He doesn't start and stop or write out too much. He just feels it out. So I've learned a lot as far as to go by gut and go by feel moreso than sitting and trying to calculate everything.

OKP: Do you still DJ a lot?

PP: Yeah. Maybe not as much this year. My mom passed away a few months ago. I've been kinda, you know, out of it. But for the most part, I still spin. I spin every second Monday at a place called APT in Manhattan. We usually got theme nights. It's pretty wild. I think this next Monday we're gonna do 80's night. We've done stuff like 'Fight the Power' night...'Bring a White Girl' night [Laughs]...just bizarre nights. People come through and we just make stuff up and have fun.

OKP: I read at one point that you owned upwards of 40,000 records. Has that changed since everyone started using laptops in their sets?

PP: I still got all the records. I pulled them out of storage recently and secretly put them some place else. It's cheaper. But the records I use aren't necessarily for scratching - more for sampling and stuff. I use Serato in the sense of party stuff. Those records are just to draw sounds from. I looked at all the records and it took literally a whole day to transport them. I looked at them and it's like man, I don't think that in this lifetime I'm ever going to be able to get through them. I go through like a box a year, and that doesn't even dent what's there. I'm gonna have to put it in my will or something.

OKP: Using Serato or a program like Ableton allows you to be a lot more creative as a DJ.

PP: I use Serato not really to change the way I DJ. I don't use all the features. I run it just like I was using two regular turntables. A few things here and there I use, but the key factor for me was not to carry records anymore. I used to have to carry a few bags, or a case and a bag, or a couple of cases. And man! To bring a laptop is ten times simpler and I have access to so much more music. Even when I went from wax to CDJ's, I was like 'Wow, this is amazing!' I can just carry a book of CD's! [Laughs.] But I didn't have access to as much music as I do with the laptop. For me, it's more convenience. I think, on a broader scale, it enables people who aren't DJs to become DJs due to the fact that they have a good collection of music. It broadened the spectrum a little more. Think of all the records you had to buy. Now, man, it's like 'I don't wanna buy records, records are expensive.' Now with Serato, you just go online and download stuff and there's your collection. You're more than halfway there. Usually a DJ, it's based on what he owns and how good he is. The computer isn't a part of blending back and forth and moving a crowd, but the first part is having a collection. So that just helps complete it right there.

OKP: How does that relate to the idea that, years ago, people would consider using a compilation record like Ultimate Breaks & Beats to be cheating? You didn't have to dig. It was right there for you. And it's like that with Serato, too. Do you think using something like that is like cheating? Or is it even a relevant concept anymore?

PP: I used to be passionate about stuff like that, especially when you're talking about samples. I'm not really drawn on originals too much. When I first started, it was like 'I got the original, I got the original.' But after a while, the listener has no idea which is making which. Nor do they care! [Laughs.] I think it's cheating if you're battling. If you're out there battling somebody and using Serato and you're using all the keys to cue stuff really fast - yeah, you're a big cheat. But if you're just DJing at a party, I don't care how Serato-friendly you are - if you're not nice enough to figure out what record to put on next to move the crowd, technology isn't going to help you.

OKP: I read an interview with you from "The Source"back in 1999...

PP: Wow, "The Source!" [Laughs.] That must have been a long ago. They haven't cared about me for years!

OKP: They talked to a lot of people. You, MC Serch, De La, Dante Ross, Big Daddy Kane...And Trugoy was talking about recording 3 Feet High and Rising and was saying when you were recording it, there were no real boundaries or limits. He said, 'Paul wouldn't stop us from doing anything.' Do you still approach music that way?

PP: I try to. I think my whole career, definitely starting with De La, I've tried to do things like that. But the unfortunate thing is that as you get older and become more experienced, you learn laws. Not really laws, but you learn techniques and ways of doing things and sometimes you have to fight yourself to unlearn stuff. For example, if you know that a kick drum will sound good at whatever frequency or hertz, you might automatically turn the bass to do that as opposed to, 'Well, let me just figure it out on my own,' or, 'Let me just feel it out or whatever.' Before, I used to just sit and experiment and turn knobs see what happens and whatever goes goes. But now, drawing from experience, 'Oh this is distorted,' or 'I gotta do this and fix this....' Some things you gotta get out of. Sometimes distortion can be your friend. Mistakes are you friend. Half of my records in my life are mistakes. Maybe more than half. Like, 'Wow, how'd that happen?' It's hard, but I try to unlearn and just go with the flow.

OKP: Tell me about a record that was a mistake that's an example of that.

PP: 'Gasface' that I did for 3rd Bass. The whole beat was a mistake. Originally that came off a four-track machine, a cassette four-track. When I sampled the beat, I didn't truncate it properly so I had the kick and the snare on one pad. It just made this weird 'kuh-kat' 'kuh-kat 'kuh-kat,' and I didn't have time to fix it cuz I had to go somewhere. But I needed to lay down the beat just as a guide. So I laid it down. Figured I'd come back later. And I listened to it and was like, 'Wow, that's different.' 'Kuh-Kat' 'kuh-kuh-kat!' I was like, 'Wooow.' But then I was like 'Maybe I'll change it later.' But a friend heard it and (in a goofy voice,) 'Yo that's craaaaazy.' So I was like, 'Oh, okay.' That was a complete mistake.

OKP: In that same "Source" interview, you were talking about that in the late 80's, as a rapper or a rap group, it was important to have your own identity. Do you think that's still important?

PP: I think it will always be important, but it's not important to this generation. In the essence of music and creativity and the universe at large, it's important to be unique and advance the art, you know? Like step up the game. Make something nobody's heard before or make somebody feel something they've never felt before. But does it apply nowadays? Is it important to the mass majority nowadays? Probably not.

OKP: Why is that the case?

PP: Everybody really got adjusted to, more or less, what's out there. Maybe not what's out there, but...you've been marketed and force fed. Especially younger kids. Somebody older, unless...maybe I'm giving too much credit...maybe 25 and older? Not saying everybody, it depends on you listened to. But 25 and older, you might have a little more discretion to your music because the time that you listened to radio, radio was different. People were pushing the boundaries a little bit more. Whereas now, the kids, they only get to hear recycled music. What I mean by recycled music is, you know, in the last six, seven years, it's just been people copying whoever's popular to make money. Like, 'Ooh, Chicken Noodle Soup. I'm gonna do...the...Tomato Soup dance!'  Everything's just done over and over and over again. If you get used to that and have nothing to use as a gauge against that, accept it...until you're exposed to something different. And the mass majority of this generation is exposed to that type of music. Do they care? Probably not. And the only reason I say that is because I have a 15 year old son, and you know, his friends will come over and I think my son played Black Moon for them. And it's like, 'What's that?' 'It's Black Moon.' 'Man, that's old-school. Cut it off!' [Laughs.] They don't want nothin' to do with it. They're just like, 'Aw, whatever.' They wanna hear snap music and uptown anthems and stuff, so....

OKP: And you have a 4 year old daughter, too. What do you play around the house? How do you hope or think her musical tastes will develop as she gets older?

PP: She's part of this new generation. I play diverse stuff but she still listens to the radio. Whatever that catchy song is, she's singing it. The best I could do, I'm not one to control like, 'You better do this,' or 'You better learn this or learn that.' I play whatever I play around the house. It could be old school stuff. Marvin Gaye. It could be my own music. If she's drawn to it? Fine. If she likes it, she'll go and probably study it a little more. But if she doesn't? Hey. What can I do? You never know, she could become the next pop diva because she listens to whatever's on the radio. [Laughs.] I never force them into anything.

OKP: You're making a project called "Baby Loves Hip Hop," too.

PP: I've been working on that. I don't want to disclose too much. To give a general overview of what I'm doing: I just don't want to make a corny kids record. There's a fine line between making a record for kids that are six months to six years and being corny and being semi-decent. I have to be careful. I gotta relax a little bit because it's for kids. It has to be catchy. It has to be jovial in a lot of ways. It has to be easy to understand. I'm trying to find a nice boundary between the two. You can make hip hop corny. I've seen a lot of commercials and kids shows that make it real corny. Almost embarassing. I'm trying to have something that the parents can play with the kids and where the parents won't be like, 'Oh my...cut that off!' And the kids will like it. It's something that they can both listen to. Like when you're in the car and you're driving someplace long so you don't have to listen to "Little Mermaid" music and crap. You can listen to something like, 'Yeah..this isn't bad.' And you can both sing-a-long with it and the kids can learn from it.

OKP: What has your daughter thought of it?

PP: That's usually my first thumbs up or thumbs down. A lot of the songs I play she thinks I play them too loud so she usually runs out. [Laughs.]

OKP: Do you ever run songs by your son so you can get a feel for what a teenager thinks of what you're making?

PP: Definitely. What's good about him, he actually started DJing...I thought he was gonna be corny but he's actually pretty good. His knowledge of music is pretty vast. I was surprised. I guess I shouldn't be surprised cuz I played a little bit of everything for him since he was really, really little. He's a good gauge for a lot of stuff. He understands old school. He understands new school. He understands production to a certain extent. He understands the effort involved in writing. Like what's corny rhymes and what's good rhymes. He might be, in a sense, a lot more worldly than I am. Especially with the new stuff. He's a good gauge. There's a lot of stuff that'll come out that he'll pick as being the hit, before it's the hit, and I'm like, 'Huh. Sounds corny to me!' [Laughs.] But he'll figure it out.

OKP: Since you're making the teaching/instructional record for kids, what place do you think the study of hip hop has in school? Some colleges have courses you can take about hip hop.

PP: I think it's a good thing. All throughout the years when I was younger, you had classes in college about jazz, classical, blues, whatever was going on. It shows that hip hop is getting a certain amount of respect. For someone to actually teach a course and for people to actually attend it, for me, is even more amazing. It's something that I just kinda roll over in the bed and, 'Yeah, this is what I do.' I know this or I know that, I did this or I did that. And like...I might know this...and for someone to actually need to learn that is amazing to me. I guess in a way, I wish I could become a professor and teach it. It'd be a piece of cake.

OKP: So you think it's pretty important to have courses like that?

PP: I think it's important. The class is only as good as the teacher. If you have somebody who's experienced, who knows, who has been there first hand...especially because we're in a time and place where there's people living who have been there from the beginning...they can probably teach it better than somebody who's just read it in books and who might be qualified to teach something, but who has not experienced it. They're just getting information second-hand mostly. If you're getting people who are able to teach it and who are able to answer your questions properly, then I think it's important. If it's somebody who's just like, 'Hey, I read that Kool Herc was...,' then it's just corny. It's teaching gibberish.

OKP: A lot of popular current rap music, stuff on the radio, is very commercially branded. Very material. Do you think the study of hip hop in a university setting or in school should focus more on hip hop in a historical context? Public Enemy was this.... Tupac was this.... Or is there validity of studying hip hop in it's present day form as well?

PP: Any class should examine every aspect of it. The political part of it is important, but it might not reach you. Maybe the part of where hip hop came from, where it grew from might reach you. Maybe the making of Chicken Noodle Soup might reach you. There should be like a Hip Hop 101, 102, 103 course. I doubt you could get that all in one semester. I think all of it is really important. Definitely the social and political aspect, especially in the mid and late 80's. Public Enemy, a lot of people were really like 'fight the power.' The Black movement was uprising again. But there's a lot of other parts that are important, too. Grand Wizard Theodore inventing the scratch. Kool Herc coming from Jamaica and setting up speakers in the park and blending music together. Even current day people using all sorts of different kinds of software to make music as opposed to sampling, which they once did. You have to how it evolved and how it is evolving.

OKP: If you had the opportunity to teach a class about hip hop, what would you want to talk about?

PP: The first thing would be the origins of where it came from. On a street level. Not just like, you get people like 'in Africa they did this,' blah blah blah. Not to that extent. The motivation behind it. What we felt like back in those days. I was young. When I started DJing I was 10-years-old. Even then, back in the late 70's, I still wasn't there...in there like that like Flash and all of them. But I was aware of what was going on and I was seeing a lot going on. It was a different vibe and a different feeling. What motivated people to make the music was just different. The people who made the difference and who elevated the art. That's what I would want to get into. Starting at the beginnings and gradually moving on to the present day. But just more or less for people to appreciate the music from a different standpoint than to look at and think, 'Oh yeah, it's beats and rhymes and scratches or somebody spinning on their head next to some big bubble letters.' [Laughs.] There's a lot more sweat and pain and heart that went into it than just somebody crossing their arms like, 'Yo. Word up.' [Laughs.] That's what you usually hear and what you see. And it's not as serious as, you know, tribal drum sounds in Africa was this. During the Revolutionary War, people did this. The slaves did this. Some things are just drawn from too heavily. I think there's a happy medium in which to kinda have a good street understanding of what it was like.

OKP: I read an interview where you said that you don't think Prince Paul records are really needed. Basically, you felt like you didn't make an impact to the music, or people, or culture at large...and that you kinda felt that Prince Paul records were a waste of time.

PP: I wouldn't say they're a waste of my time. Those records are important for me...emotionally. Whenever you make anything, create anything...it taps into your soul. It taps more from your soul than it does from your mind. If you're an 'artist.' Your mind will usually take stuff and....(Woah, there's a big spider in my house, let me go kill it)....your mind will usually learn stuff and regenerate things and copy what you hear, but your soul will usually tap into something that's within you. How you feel. Your emotions. In that sense, it's needed for me to do that. On a grander scale, as far as the people of the mass majority...do they wanna hear me? I doubt it....(Woah. Woooooah, this spider's really big. Okay I just killed it.)....I don't think people on a mass majority really care. There's a handful of people, they're fans and they love the music, but I don't know man. I hate to sound like there's no hope. But to me, hip hop is just like how I always called it, it's hip pop. It's just pop music now. Even people who try to be really real...isn't really making really good music either! [Laughs.] It's hard. It's in a weird place. I sit there and I'm like wow, sittin' there bustin' my butt trying to make certain impacts and changes. Bernie Worrell is one example. There's certain people who appreciate it, but for the vast majority, do they want it? I doubt it. I think they want more, I dunno, a Rhianna and Lil' Wayne collaboration.

OKP: Why do you think that happened? What's changed since when you were a kid growing up and now?

PP: Money. There's a lot more money in the music industry and it's a lot more tempting to chase after the money as opposed to before where you kinda just made music and you just wanted to get a deal, but your whole incentive wasn't to make the dollar. Your whole creative process was a lot different. You were just like, 'Wow, I want to make an impact. I just wanna have a band and we're just gonna go out and we're just gonna play really good music and make really good songs...and if a talent scout is out, we're gonna get picked up and make really good music.' And then later on, they usually go, 'Woah! I'm makin' money!' But when your whole intention is when before you even know how to rhyme or learn how to sing, you thinkin', 'I wanna make a demo and make some money so I can buy me whatever, some fat diamond earrings.' Your whole approach to making music is different. That's kinda what I see in the new generation. I'm not saying everybody. There's always exceptions to the rule. But the motivation for the majority of the people I see and the kids I see is they want to be famous and make money. Look at any 'Behind the Music' of any rock band, and NONE of 'em that I can remember go, 'Man, we just wanted to make money!' A lot of them will say, 'We just wanted to make cool music. We were influenced by whoever. They made cool music. We had a band. I love to play guitar. He loved to play drums. We got together and made this band. We were hoping to get a record deal. Columbia signed us. We went double wood. But then things picked up and we sold 80 million.' You know? Who knows? That's the motivation as opposed to now.

OKP: What about for Bernie Worrell? He's a lot older than me and a lot older than you.

PP: He's in his 60's.

OKP: What do you think continues to be the motivation for him?

PP: Man, he's just from a different school. His thing is just really...he just likes to play. You know? It's unfortunate for him that he didn't make the money that he was supposed to make. A lot of those hit songs that he made, just due to bad contracts and due to the era it was in, he didn't get a lot of publishing and didn't get a lot of stuff. So now his focus now might be like, 'Yo I need to make money,' because of all those years of playing and not receiving any royalties. But initially, he comes from the school, like I said earlier, where he just likes to play music and have fun. He still likes playing. But it definitely might be, 'Yo, I need to make some dough cuz I'm 60-something years old. Who knows if social security will kick in. I got bills to pay.'

OKP: Did the motivation for you ever change? After you had a son, after you had a daughter. As every year passes, does the motivation ever change? Like, 'Maybe I should start working with Soulja Boy.'

PP: [Laughs.] I'm not really mad at Soulja Boy. I think for me, it varies from year to year, man. Sometimes I really worry about money. What am I gonna do? I'd like to stick to my guns and do what I wanna do, but the reality of it is like, man, I gotta make cash. I'm a lot older now. I just turned 40 this year. What's the likelihood of me being able to retire off of making music? I'm like, 'Oh man...Do I have to go on the other side?' In the past few years, it hasn't been all that dandy as far as the finances. But at the same time, there's a certain amount of integrity and pride that you have to uphold. And I always kinda feel that somewhere along the line, something good will happen. Obviously through praying, but at the same time, maybe there might be an "Ocean's 15" and it'll be like, 'Hey Paul, we'd like you to score the whole movie. It has to do all with the late 80's' or something. Who knows? Something will always come up that will require me being me.

PP: I hope next year is better than this year. This year was a bad year for me. My mom passed. Some family issues. I haven't been working that much because I've been kinda out of it, so.... A lot of issues. Usually that makes for great music. So I'm thinking, once I get past where my woes are this year, it should generate some reeeeeally good music for next year and beyond. For me, that's always the motivation. When the chips are down. When things are all good, you know, it's hard for me to make music. But when things are bad and it's like the world is coming to an end, that's when something good happens.

OKP: Was there a time before when that was the case?

PP: That was the Gravediggaz album. The Gravediggaz album was just all made out of depression. 3 Feet High and Rising for me was me trying to prove to Stetsasonic that I can actually produce music and make music. Thus came De La Soul. More of an experimentation and reassuring myself that I'm actually not a sucka. [Laughs.] Not that kids called me a sucka, but I was the youngest, so I was kinda in theory. But it gave me a chance to flex my ideas. Like more records - Prince Among Thieves, Psychoanalysis. They're all like depression records.

OKP: What was it that caused you to make Prince Among Thieves?

PP: There's a few things. The main thing was that I had always wanted to make a movie on wax. Like a kids record. To me, it was like an adult kids record. I posed it to Russell Simmons because I had a little record label on Def Jam in the early 90's and he told me to demo it up. I was like, 'I can't demo something like that! It's a big idea! I have to do the whole album!' [Laughs.] So I held onto it until I got to Tommy Boy. When I got to Tommy Boy, they were kinda like...(silence) 'wow. You sure you want to do that?' That record actually wasn't released for a whole year. It sat at Tommy Boy for a whole year before they released it. It was done in February of '98 and it came out in February of '99. It was just weird. I wanted to mimic everything I'd ever seen like all the corny TV shows and all the stupid dialogue. At the same time, I also wanted to show, cuz I was going through such a rough period in my life, I wanted to show how the bad guy always wins. That's how I was feeling at the time. Bad people win, good people lose. That's why the dude died in the end. F it. That's how it really is. That was my point. That record took a long time. A lot of work. I didn't have the technology to make it. I made it all with samplers and sequencers. I didn't have Pro Tools or anything. I pieced it all together, like I said, on samplers.

OKP: So you were just drawing from different inspirations from shows you'd seen on TV and records that you'd heard?

PP: Yeah. It was just like making a kiddie record. Kids records back in the 70's were like, 'Hey! Turn the page! *Ding!*' Then they have a little scene, the kid is walking down the street...and there's the dialogue he's having. And then it might go into a song. I was like, 'Wow, lemme do the same thing.' But I like movies. I like the stupidity and the repetitiveness of a lot of these 'hood movies.' It's always the same thing happens. Somebody's always a minister. The mom is always crying. Somebody's dealing drugs. There's always crooked white cops. It's always the same thing repeated. It's like, 'Man, do I cut the blue wire or the yellow wire?!' You've seen that a billion times! [Laughs.] Or you see the struggle of someone with a gun and it goes off, and like, who's gonna fall? Who got shot? They repeat that crap over and over again. So I was like, 'You know what? I'm going to make a record of all the stupid stuff you see all the time.' It's just a spoof of everything I've seen. I've been asked to something like that again, but I don't know. It was a lot of work, man. Maybe if I get inspired again.

- Mike Gadd