Subsequent to 9/11 nothing really made sense. Two of my friends were dead. I had a bullshit job and I couldn't pay rent. My quest for personal meaning shrunk in the shadows of a broken skyline. On September 18, 2001 "Labor Days" dropped. I stopped by Other Music on East 4th Street, copped it, popped it in and began walking, with discman in hand, the entire 92 blocks to my uptown spot. I was completely captivated, somehow less confused and ultimately comforted that this dude with the wacky vocabulary and tracheotomy voice could make the apocalypse sound so romantic. He made romance sound robotic.

Who the fuck is Aes-Rock? He's that kid that rocked a crooked lid piece when the straight-laced world crumbled to rubble. He's that artist that emerged at the perfect time and place draped in a style undeniably his own. His fan base is obsessive and fiercely loyal. They've followed him into the "Bazooka Tooth" future, traced his "Earthworms" roots and traipsed through his "Appleseed" past. Rumor has it that upon hearing "Float," El-P made him an offer he couldn't refuse. I, for one, am thankful he played the Dre to Aesop's Snoop. I recently got the chance to chat with Bazooka Tooth himself on the topics of beef, pigs, Hyphy and his tightest album to date, None Shall Pass.

Okayplayer- These days a lot of rappers harp on the death of hip-hop. From my perspective, that type of mourning doesn’t do shit for this culture’s advancement, it’s just passive bitching. One thing I always liked about your stuff and Def Jux in general is that your guys’ music doesn’t dwell on the past; it more defines the now and pushes the envelope toward the future, kind of leading by example, I suppose.

Aesop Rock- I couldn’t agree with you more. And just to put it out there, I don’t think Nas thinks hip-hop is dead either. It is a pretty silly argument, I mean what, are you gonna kill a genre if you keep bashing it every fucking five minutes? There are obviously certain periods of hip-hop that are stronger than others but, that said, I don’t wanna recreate any two or three year time period and just sit still with it.

OKP- I feel you. And I know you and El-P both alluded to that specifically on “We’re Famous.” I mean, ’94 was probably my favorite year for rap music but it isn’t ’94 anymore, right?

AR- Yeah, exactly. ’94 was a different generation and not to say I’m big enough or cool enough to be the style that defines our generation but fuck, if I’m not gonna try to keep it moving then I don’t know… I guess it happens in every genre but hip-hop fans tend to get trapped in these really little boxes of what it’s supposed to sound like. And if anything strays from that it’s like they don’t know if they’re allowed to like it. And that’s silly because the reason ’94 sounded like ’94 is because ’92 and ’93 led up to it.

OKP- I know I just referenced “We’re Famous” a minute ago and I won’t even ask you to get into that but more generally, what do you think about the use of beef in hip-hop? Do you feel it’s more used as a gimmick to replace natural talent or can it be legitimized as an extension of the live emcee battle?

AR- At this point it’s pretty gimmicky. People do try to validate it by saying, “that’s what hip-hop was founded on” and that is true to a degree but it’s a bit out of hand and that sort of led me not to bleed into this record so much. I tried to subtract myself from the equation almost entirely with my new stuff and not even talk AT anybody. I’d rather talk WITH somebody. It’s pretty silly if you can’t harbor a buzz by yourself.

OKP- Do you ever hop into the occasional cipher these days to stay sharp or are you more focused on becoming a better song writer?

AR- At this point I’m pretty strictly focused on song writing. That’s not to say that if I’m around my friends and we have a six-hour car ride that five of them won’t be spent getting retarded and freestyling but I’m not really out to show and prove cipher-wise anymore. Not that it doesn’t sharpen your skills but it’s kind of more of a step ladder and you can get caught in that little world and that kind of stops your progression to a degree.

OKP- I think I see song writing as a sign of maturity.

AR- Any time you call something a sign of maturity you’re treading on thin ice because you’ll automatically have people saying, “Oh, what…

OKP- …you’re too good for that?”

AR- Yeah. But I’m just not all about being referenced as that certain type of rapper. I’d rather have some cool records under my belt.

OKP- Did you have to come up navigating the battle circuit around NYC?

AR- Not so much entering official battles but always outside of shows and places like Nuyorican. Pretty much all the dudes from New York that are making names for themselves in Indie hip-hop now came up rhyming together in the late ‘90s. It’s really cool to see some of them getting their shine.

OKP- One collaboration that comes to mind is “Coward of the Year.” That’s my joint! I was just wondering how you and Percee-P got together? I also just wanted to touch on that dude being in the game for almost two decades and still not releasing an official album…

AR- I know it’s crazy! But actually I’m on a couple songs on his new album and I think Stones Throw finally put a date on it… But we met through Dub-L who was the producer of this group The Controls, who also had Anne Colville on vocals. Dub-L had helped me on some earlier stuff and Percee and I just happened to come through the studio on the same day. We became friends and did a couple songs together. But you know, even though he didn’t have an album out, he was on the grind constantly and he was definitely known for that.

OKP- I met him outside of Fat Beats several times.

AR- Ya, grinding, grinding. He just reminded me of how I was slacking constantly (laughter) and why I wasn’t out trying to get a buzz going. So I was definitely influenced by him. And I have heard two of the songs he did with Madlib and they’re fucking dope.

OKP- Yo, Illogic? That dude is insanely talented and criminally underrated…

AR- I know he’s had some kids and he’s had some projects out but yes, criminally underrated. He’s fucking sick and he always was. I felt the same as you as far as being confused why he wasn’t huge. He’s extremely versatile and basically just crazy.

OKP- What ever happened to the “Orphanage” project, the collaborative album between yourself, Slug, Eyedea, Illogic and Blueprint? Was that just a wet dream for under ground rap fans?

AR- What did ever happen to the “Orphanage” project (laughter)? I think we all linked up at Rock Steady one year; some of them were even staying at my house and we came up with the idea to do this project together. We all had a show in Minneapolis a few months later so over the course of like three days we came up with some beats, Ant from Atmosphere also brought down a bunch of beats, and recorded eight or nine songs. But we rushed them all and a couple of us were sick, we were up all night. I don’t think they were as good as they could have been and at the end of the day I think everyone agreed that it was cool and fun but, you know, we only had like two hours to do each song! Maybe it was meant to be more for the memories. I think Blueprint was left with most of the tracks we recorded but I don’t even know…

OKP- I’ve seen you perform a lot over the past six years and the crowd tends to be predominantly white dudes, early twenties, with tilted brims and half-beards. How do you think you being white…

AR- I probably have a half-beard also (laughter).

OKP- And you tend to rock the crooked brim… But do you feel you’ve been limited as far as reaching a certain audience because of your race or that you’ve reached a larger one because of it?

AR- Probably both. But I don’t know anybody black or white that doesn’t wish that their audience was more diverse. It’s no secret that underground rap has a predominantly large white fan base. But, you know, you shoot for your target fan base, which is hip-hop fans, and then you take whoever comes.

OKP- Do you feel like the proliferation of computers waters-down the scene because so many people are doing it?

AR- It waters-down the scene but not necessarily for that reason but because of marketing. Computers have changed everything. I’m assuming you’re around my age but when I was young I bought a single and if I liked it I bought the album. The “single” is beyond dead at this point. Computers and Internet distribution have added so many strange elements to the point that literally, when we put a product out, we have absolutely no idea how to market it. It keeps shifting more and more towards where it’s going and that is 100% internet distribution.

OKP- Sounds like a single would be a waste of money.

AR- It is a waste of money! And the people that buy it probably treat it more as a collector’s item at this point.

OKP- From time to time stupid labels get aimed at more “experimental” hip-hop. You and El-P, for example, completely re-render the English language to make it your own. I feel the same way about Ghostface and Kool Keith but you never hear some shit like “nerd rapper” tossed at them.

AR- That could be the price you pay for hip-hop fans in general being pretty closed-minded. There are definitely people of all races expanding the definition of what hip-hop is but unfortunately labels get tossed around because hip-hop is still in this “flavor of the week” thing where if you try something different you get a sub-genre named after you. Then you think you’re not doing something right like, “why did I just have a fucking genre named after me?” I’ve been called every name in the fucking book. I’ve been told I don’t even make hip-hop! (laughter) It’s annoying but I just stay focused and do whatever I’m gonna do.

OKP- I read a funny quote that said being at a record signing for you was like being at a Star Trek convention.

AR- (laughter) That’s kinda true but I’m thankful for everyone and not to sound corny but, I never thought I could make music for a living and I wake up literally every day thinking that this could all just be gone. It’s become really superficial and easy to get the rug pulled out from under you in this industry. So every fan I get is shocking. I welcome everybody.

OKP- Sounds like that paranoid appreciation would keep you hungry as well.

AR- Yeah, and also more successful once you drop the stigma of what your fan base should look like or listen to. A lot of people don’t get used to it and if their fan base doesn’t look exactly like they envisioned when they wrote their first song, it fucks them up and they will switch up their whole steez in order to capture just those people they’re focused on capturing. It can fuck your shit up. If you have fans, you’re lucky in the first place.

OKP- Some might call your vernacular “abstract,” but your songs can be really personal as well. I’m curious if language is ever a sort of camouflage for you or if you’re just trying to convey a common feeling in a unique way?

AR- It can be both. For example, “Cocaine Rap” is blowing up. I bought the Clipse record because it was dope styles. If you put almost any subject matter across in a way that’s interesting then it’s gonna be interesting. I write personal stuff because it’s what I’m best at and it allows me to get into a style to do what I consider important and what will ultimately sound the best. That being said, I’m not out shooting people but I listen to some gangster shit because some dudes are dope. I’m not gonna say subject matter is irrelevant because that’s a little ignorant but it’s really just about, are you good enough to pull it off? You could do a rap song about riding a bicycle if you could manage to pull it off. Like, does that subject matter mean enough to you that you can fit it into your style and have it come across in a way that’s pretty slick?

OKP- On the “Revenge of the Robots” dvd you’ve got this really candid monologue about depression and its effects on your life.

AR- (chuckles) Those were rugged times.

OKP- I’m reading this book called “Touched With Fire” about manic depression and its reciprocal relationship with the artistic temperament. Do you feel as an artist that you thrive on a certain amount of personal turmoil or that your art would suffer from total sanity?

AR- People tend to write their best work about being hurt. Some people will feed into negativity on any level to fuel their work. And I guess no one wants to hear a record of 12 songs about being happy. I don’t think anyone wants to make that record. If they do, there’s gotta be something wrong with them (laughter)! It’s just funny because with the competitive edge of rap music, people present this flawless image, like they’re invincible. I guess sometimes it works but if you can manage to deal with being a little vulnerable and show some sort of emotion here and there then you’re a leg up already.  

OKP- Or you might just get another sub-genre named after you.

AR- If they don’t name a genre after me this time around I’ll be hurt!

OKP- You deserve it, man. So how are you feeling these days?

AR- I’m pretty good. It comes and goes. I’m vulnerable to being depressed and having a lot of anxiety. It’s how I’ve been my whole life so I kind of live under that and have a tendency to go that direction every once in a while. I have all the ingredients to being happy but for some reason I have this pessimistic view and it’s hard for me to take comfort in the successes I’ve had. I don’t know what that’s based on but I don’t take time to be proud. Maybe I should, but I’d rather keep my head in the sand and just try to keep going. I have this feeling that if I stop to look around and be proud of what I have than it will all just go away. That being said, I’m happily married and feel very supported.

OKP- Congratulations on your marriage. I understand you guys relocated to The Bay.

AR- Yeah, we’ll most definitely be going back east at some point but for now we’re in San Francisco and I gotta say, it’s pretty damn nice.

OKP- The weather’s dope but the pizza’s fucking garbage.

AR- Yeah man, no bagels either. But I’m mostly an introvert so I feel I can be almost anywhere with a few people I love and a studio.

OKP- You trying to get Hyphy?

AR- I recently got to play a show Turf Talk was at. Honestly, I think that shit is dope! Coming from New York and bumping New York hip-hop radio, I didn’t even know that shit existed because I just wasn’t exposed to it. Even underground radio there plays “east coast” underground. I was totally opened up to this whole new world and I find it so refreshing because these dudes like Keak The Sneak have really incredibly bugged out styles for being the talk of the town.  For breaking the charts and being the Bay Area dons, they’re pretty fucking weird! Maybe I’m just used to more New York shit where people are more scared to experiment, but it’s pretty dope, I gotta say. These dudes are emcees because they’re hungry and really trying to do something vocally that nobody’s ever done before and that goes beyond this whole “holier than thou” type of thing.

OKP- Since moving out west from NY, I’ve started listening to a whole new range of hip-hop. It’s interesting how much geography can play into taste.

AR- No doubt. And it’s not even closed-mindedness, it’s just lack of exposure. Goes to show how warped radio is. It’s a weird world.

OKP- You’ve been involved in two pretty interesting but differing projects over the past year; the “All Day: Original Run / Nike” mix and “The Next Best Thing.” Why don’t you break those down for your fans who may not have even known about them.

AR- The Nike thing was a strange opportunity that came my way. They had done this with two other artists so I was the third guinea pig. They were experimenting with different genres. I got to do 45 minutes of mostly instrumental music designed for an athlete to train to. I mean Nike doesn’t usually come knocking at my door and this is like one of the biggest corporations in the world basically saying, “Do your thing.” But it was the tightest deadline of my life! Once I agreed they said I had 40 days to submit my masters. I was like, “Holy fucking Christ!”


“The Next Best Thing” was a collaboration with illustrator Jeremy Fish. It was kind of a take off on old Disney picture books with a 7” that would get played as you flipped the pages. Jeremy was one of the first dudes I met when I moved out to San Francisco. We became good friends and fans of each other’s and knew we were gonna collaborate from day one. I mean, especially in rap music, there’s no time put into the visual presentation. Most of the artwork that accompanies hip-hop albums is pretty fucking terrible. People will spend years making an album then hire some random guy to take pictures of them mean-mugging a camera. Is that really the visual representation of what you’re doing? Ok. But this was really a collaboration. He was drawing the pictures while I was laying the tracks and I was writing the lyrics while he was drawing. Now he’s doing all the artwork for my current record and we’re working on an animated video together.

These were both oddball projects but that’s what attracted me to them. When someone hits me with an idea that I never thought of or never thought I’d get the opportunity to do I’m almost more into it automatically.


OKP- I’ve never considered you an artist that was afraid to experiment. That said, I think “Bazooka Tooth” is your most challenging record to date. It sounds like a project you had to get off your chest regardless of the fact you may have marginalized a few heads who may just have wanted to hear another “Daylight.”

AR- Yeah, you’re probably right (laughter). But that’s what had to happen at the time. People may have wanted “Daylight 2” but I couldn’t give it to them. I just wasn’t there. It was a strange time and all the inaccessibility and punchiness and oddness of “Bazooka Tooth” that may have turned some people off definitely still turned some people on because it’s my fastest selling record to date. I like to make shit that sounds different from the last thing and I wasn’t gonna compromise it even though I knew I could go for another “Daylight.”

OKP- None Shall Pass seems almost like your redemption record by comparison. It’s starts with a voice chanting “I am alive” and there’s a lot of really good story telling. There’s much more production consistency too. It’s got this obvious rock influence that’s even funky at times. It’s layered and really organic compared to some of your noisier machine-like beats. Every track on this album is mad cinematic, they all really paint a visual.

AR- As far as None Shall Pass it’s just a different time and as far as the more organic feel it’s because there is a lot of live instrumentation on there. A lot of the beats that Blockhead made wound up having samples pulled out of them and so myself and other musicians ended up playing the parts. It forced me to pay more attention to this project than any in the past because these songs went through a lot of stages to get to where they are now. There was a point we actually turned in the record but then even a few more samples got pulled because they weren’t quite obscure enough for the label to feel comfortable enough with the risk. On other projects I may have just been like, “fuck it” and walked away but El-P came in and helped out some and there was just a lot of good collaboration this time around.  

OKP- The production’s ill to the point that this record could definitely reach a few more people from different audiences. On the same token, your flow is sharp as ever this time around, that’s rare as hell for rappers… And it’s more streamlined cadence wise. I think some cats that may have had trouble following you in the past could really tap into Aesop Rock on joints like "None Shall Pass,” “39 Thieves” and “Citronella,” all of which you fucking murder, by the way.

AR- Thank you. And I agree with you that it is hard to find somebody that will do something record after record flow-wise that maintains originality and one-ups other stuff they’ve done as far as style. I’m not gonna sit here and say I pulled it off but I fucking tried to pull it off! But you know; that’s like my shit. I love writing lyrics. It’s like O.C.D. for me at this point. I have to write lyrics. It’s almost scary at times how much I’m into it and how much time I spend on crafting these verses and I just hope that shows.

OKP- It does. It’s a really grown up sounding record and from a fan’s perspective, it’s fucking dope!

AR- Thank you so much man. You can’t even imagine how good it is to hear that! I haven’t gotten any honest feedback because I’ve just been doing interviews and I have no idea what the reviews will look like. I mean, the label’s pretty excited but those guys are paid to be excited (laughter).

OKP- If it’s any consolation, I don’t get paid for this.

AR- (laughter) Thank you, man.

OKP- The hidden track “Pigs” is fucking hilarious! Any particular run-ins with cops that inspired the song?

AR- It’s more just for that certain type of person that wants to take on the personification of a pig. It came about when I was waiting to do my collabo song with El (“Gun for the Whole Family”), the last song for the record. But he was crazy busy with his album then jumped straight into promo mode. I was kinda sitting there for an extra week or two waiting for him but I had this idea for a song for a long time so while I was waiting it popped back into my head. I played a rough demo of me over some bluesy street shit to my girl and a few friends and they were into it. Then I only had like two days to finish it before my deadline so I had it in my head that it would be like a bonus track because it was an after thought to making the rest of the record. I asked my wife to replay the riff I had sampled, like a guy begging for change sound. We threw it together and it ended up being one of my favorite songs on the record, if not my favorite.

OKP- I think you should holler at B-Real for the remix.

AR- You might be right!

OKP- I always thought you’d sound dope on a track with Outkast.

AR- Shit, if you can get me Outkast, I’ll do it! But honestly I think there was only one time I straight up called somebody I didn’t know to get on a track and that was Camp Lo on “Limelighters.” They ended up being super cool and it was a lot of fun but it’s hard for me to collaborate with someone I don’t know because to a degree it goes against what I do and what I find comfortable about music. That being said, once a year I get people to call Tom Waits for me on my birthday to see if he’ll work with me. He never does and he probably never will. I almost don’t want him to because I’ve had some bad experiences with that, like you’ll meet somebody you look up to and they’ll be a total asshole and their legacy is broken in your mind because they’re not at all the person you thought they would be.

OKP- Yeah, I’m glad you turned out to be a cool-ass dude over this interview.


None Shall Pass is in stores now, out on Definitive Jux Records.

- Jeff Artist 

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